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Thread: Procedure/Tactic at Ingress/Egress to/from target

  1. #1
    Retired pilot Ski's Avatar
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    Procedure/Tactic at Ingress/Egress to/from target

    I have been wondering the "proper" procedure/tactic to be used to maintain mutual support before, during, and after weapons have been deployed? For example, if a flight is inbound to a target in SHOOTERS, MAVERICKS, WEDGE RIGHT, IN FROM THE NORTH, OFF NORTH, that means lead is 1-1.5 miles ahead of his/her wingman. Since lead will have a lock and fire before the wingman gets a lock, they will initiate their turn first. Once the wingman gets a lock and fires and turns to rejoin, Lead will be 2-3 miles or more ahead of the wingman. Is this separation appropriate for mutual support? What is the best practice for Lead and Wingman in regards to G's pulled, bank angle, and formation to Ingress/Egress to/from a target? I hope this is a good enough description of my question of mutual support. If this is more appropriate to be discussed on TS, please let me know. Cheers!

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    Clippy


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    If the wingie has good timing he should be finish his last shot at the same distance from target that lead had in his last shot. So, If leads hooks left, he should have depending on his speed, about 10-15 seconds to do his hook and restablish mutual support. Lead could in theory get a visual on you in the second part of his hook.
    And, if timing was right and you hooked properly you would end up in the same formation as the inbound leg, on the opposite side, so wedge left.

    As per OI's, tactical turns are to be done at 60 of bank and 3-4G's, in the case of a hook, 4G's.

    WHAC-A-MOLE JTAC 11+13

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    Senior Member Gunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimi View Post
    As per OI's, tactical turns are to be done at 60 of bank and 3-4G's, in the case of a hook, 4G's.
    Easy Klippy G

    2G, 60 degrees of bank, level turn. for Turns
    3G, 70 degrees of bank, level turn. for Cross Turns/Hooks

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    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    From the ATTACK contract:

    Wingmen will come off in the same direction as element leads, threat permitting.

    Off the target, the following priorities determine which aircraft has the right-of-way:
    o Defending/defensive
    o Lower flight position number
    o Higher flight position number

    Off the target, the following priorities apply to egress:
    o Complete the SEM
    o Egress the threat area
    o Egress the target area
    o Terrain mask
    o Re-establish mutual support

    Notice that re-establishing mutual support is last on the list.

    Generally, WEDGE is better suited to bombs/guns and SHOOTER/COVER attacks, but a low-altitude WEDGE/MAVERICK attack might be something like this:

    • FL unmasks (bump up).
    • WM turns to FL's unmask point.
    • WM hears FL's RIFLE and unmasks (pop up).
    • FL makes a hard 180 toward the egress direction, then a hard 90 in the opposite direction.
    • WM calls RIFLE and makes a hard 90 in the egress direction.


    From here, if your timing was good, you should be back in something resembling WEDGE, and an in-place 90 will get you moving in the desired direction.

    Otherwise, consider using LINE when shooting Maverick. Sorting is easier, egress is simplified, and it's the best formation to be in if there's any kind of air-to-air threat.

    Also, I keep hearing references to "rippling" Mavericks. You guys aren't actually doing that, are you? Two slews or 10 seconds on final is the limit on how long you want to be pointed at the target area while flying in a nice predictable straight line.

    Because of the slant ranges involved and the acquisition time required, shooting more than one Maverick per pass is not a valid tactic unless you're using a LAU-88 with its Rapid Fire capability. The number of switch actions required to shoot two Mavericks from LAU-117s on the same pass results in a high probability of 1) completely fumbling the delivery; 2) exceeding time-on-final limits; and/or 3) pressing inside Maverick Rmin and/or lethal threat range. Don't do it.

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    Member Dojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    Also, I keep hearing references to "rippling" Mavericks. You guys aren't actually doing that, are you? Two slews or 10 seconds on final is the limit on how long you want to be pointed at the target area while flying in a nice predictable straight line.
    Yes, the overwhelming majority of us have been rippling with 117s; and I certainly have been (incorrectly) briefing it in my flights as I thought it only a suggestion that you don't. Yesterday's flight was the first time (ever) I fully appreciated the problem and briefed two passes. I'll try to make sure I pass that along to others as well, as I'm definitely guilty of ignoring the considerations.

  10. #6

    Clippy


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    Noodle, in the attack you described (and wedge bombs), isn't the mutual support something that's required throughout the whole attack? Durig each pilots individual delivery the mutual support is kinda lost, but the other guy is providing cover nonetheless. So Low Altitude Egress contract states that the element would be reestablishing mutual support as soon as wingie completes his SEM.
    Doesn't that conflict with the priorities of the Attack contract? Because "terrain masking" inherently implicates low altitude.

    WHAC-A-MOLE JTAC 11+13

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    Member Dojo's Avatar
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    First, I don't believe you can literally have mutual support throughout the whole attack, and I don't believe that's what he was saying, and it's a point brought up repeatedly during training. The idea is to have maximum mutual support. When actually rolled in on the target, moments to delivery, the shooter is necessarily, focused on the delivery. Mutual support - i.e. support of each other, is thereby broken. The idea of the egress list, is to safely get you and your wing off the target after delivery, whereby you're ultimately working to re-establish mutual support as quickly as manageable.

    Second, the list is a prioritized list, where applicable, not a literal list of things to do. e.g. if you were at altitude with a Level Delivery profile, the SEM and terrain mask items wouldn't be applicable, but the order of priorities would remain the same.
    Last edited by Dojo; 11Apr16 at 14:45.

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    Clippy


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    Roger, maybe I was taking stuff a bit too literal (cause we learned all that stuff by heart). Sometimes we need to analize in a case by case setting, which is what happened.

    WHAC-A-MOLE JTAC 11+13

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    Member Dojo's Avatar
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    A point to think about, is the key word mutual. It specifically means supporting each other. One person covering the other during an attack is not mutual support, which is where I believe at least some of the confusion lies.

    It's a pretty literal thing. You're either in mutual support, or not, no in between. So when you stop supporting the other guy to focus on an attack, mutual support ceases until such time you re-establish.

    That's what we're working towards with each regimented attack plan lately.

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    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimi View Post
    ...isn't the mutual support something that's required throughout the whole attack? Durig each pilots individual delivery the mutual support is kinda lost, but the other guy is providing cover nonetheless. So Low Altitude Egress contract states that the element would be reestablishing mutual support as soon as wingie completes his SEM. Doesn't that conflict with the priorities of the Attack contract? Because "terrain masking" inherently implicates low altitude.
    As Dojo said, we're talking about MUTUAL support. It's understood that the guy who's employing ordnance is NOT supporting the other guy. Moreover, depending on the briefed attack - such as any low-altitude SHOOTERS attack - it's understood that nobody is supporting anyone because each pilot is maneuvering to employ his own weapons, then SEMing, then maneuvering to defeat the threat. Each fighter is DEFENSIVE when coming off the target, so depending on timing, there will be periods when you're on your own until you're clear of the threat and you can locate each other and regain formation integrity.

    Most attacks are designed to facilitate the expeditious return to tactical formation, but how things play out depend largely on the threat-level and the tactics used. Concepts like SHOOTER/COVER ensure greater support for the guy employing, but isn't really MUTUAL...

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