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Thread: 65th vAggressor Sqn - First Blood

  1. #11
    We will post up a debrief in the 65th forum over the next day or so.

    Lots of things identified in our debrief, which I (we) will detail in said thread, the big thing being fighters close distance very quickly.

    I'll say this, luck was heavily involved. I was heading for a GCI hostile contact 'over that way'. It was the AAA Fire seen in the start of the video that gave the Hogs away, were it not for that I doubt I'd have known where they were. At least not so quickly.

  2. #12
    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Good stuff, everyone! Nicely done!

    Eddie, looking forward to the RED Leasons Learned in the coming days.

    Stuka/Gopher, sounds like you guys got bamboozled. No 21 NAILS on the RWR? No AWACS threat calls?

    Did you request a BOGEY DOPE or just PICTURE?

    If you had been aware of the A/A threat, would you have used a SHOOTER/COVER attack instead of SHOOTERS?

    Did you brief visual lookout responsibilities? Would it have helped to assign sectors for each flight member, e.g. #2 is responsible for everything aft a line connecting the two of you, near to far, horizon down?

    What formation were you flying at the time? Were you using an altitude stack? Would a 1000ft stack have helped the low man get a TALLY on any bandits WVR?

    I feel like the inability of the RWR/CMSP to correctly detect and identify a threat radar, along with the way DCS models the CMS switch operation, is going to require the use of a CMS program employing a mix of chaff and IRCM, to say nothing of ECM.

  3. #13

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    At the moment of the attack we were in a wedge, shooter/cover, maverick run.
    My last call to AWACS PICTURE call, minutes before, learned us that there was an enemy contact 20 miles away at 24000ft. That is above the overcast cloud deck.
    So, feeling like hero's we thought that he was far enough away to be a real problem, since he still had to come through the cloud deck, close the 20 miles, and had the factor that it started to get dark.
    The dusk actually played in his favor, as the AAA towards us were as good as a neon sign pointing at me.

    The RWR never yelled to me that there was an enemy fighter with an active RADAR in the area. Make no mistake. It will have been there.
    The RWR scope was already filed with multiple search radars, a dog ear, a SA-6 site, friendly SA-8 and Patriot sites and all the AAA and LASERS from our target area.
    But in DCS the MIG currently is still an unknown contact, without an own sound related to it, it just is being displayed all of a sudden without any extra special noise, besides the default "bleep". And that made me miss it.
    No excuses, but once the RWR is reacting the the same to 21 as to a 29 for instance, it would have given us 10, 20 seconds extra to do something about our situation.

    Long story short: we never knew he was there.
    On the way home, the Patriot was firing, so we knew at that moment he was there.
    Back home, the AMCI showed it took a hit from the 21.
    I was convinced that a MANPAD got me. That little sucker already had a few missiles in the air at us. Being low to the ground, with IR threats in the area, I was on manual CMSP, program D. That is indeed flare heavy. No chaff.


    As to the damage: a TON of structural damage, but almost no avionics.
    GCAS, FM and UHF were out, MWS degraded and both both wing fuel pumps were out.

    Providing CAS when you're all out of HUA!

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    Baxter (11Dec14), El_Roto (11Dec14), Gopher (11Dec14), Howie (11Dec14), Trigger (11Dec14)

  5. #14
    Member JayPee's Avatar
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    I take it you are using the Mig-21 for your Aggressor squadron. What are you using this sqn for? Training to successfully provide CAS in the Hog with an air threat present? Currently reading up on the RL 65th..
    Last edited by JayPee; 11Dec14 at 10:12.

  6. #15

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    And on Howie's request


    Providing CAS when you're all out of HUA!

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  8. #16
    Exactly that jay. Training tool (although of course it adds to the enjoyment factors as well) to get used to operating with an air threat. The Fishbed is the ideal platform as it isn't a modern fighter with all the toys so the Hogs have a lot of things they can do to defeat/deny against it.

  9. #17
    Member JayPee's Avatar
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    Interesting to include the 21 in such a way! Perhaps you can/will do the same with the L-39 altough I'm not quite sure how an armed trainer would compare to the 21 in the role of aggressor. And then there is the question when it will be released and if it's properly modeled..

    A minor detail maybe, but do you use Russian TTPs (and do you have knowledge of those) while in the 21 or Western/US ones? Or perhaps making use of actual TTPs is not that relevant while 'merely' performing the role of aggressor?

  10. #18
    Part of the 65th's role is developing such TTPs. At the moment it's mostly what we already know when it comes to A/A and general Russian doctorine.

    While we have some RL stuff to use as a base much of this is about developing stuff that works in DCS. For example, no point trying to use a real world tactic that relies on superior ECM/RWR/CMS performance when those systems in DCS don't do what they do in reality.

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  12. #19

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    When AWACS sucks big time and only tells you there's a Mig around, when he's actually within 3 miles:


    Providing CAS when you're all out of HUA!

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  14. #20
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    Nice work Roto/Stuka! Fucking awesome. Were you guys communicating once Roto was engaged? If so, what was said?

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