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Thread: Questions regarding Mk-82 CCIP bombing training

  1. #1
    76th vFS Pilot IronHog's Avatar
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    Questions regarding Mk-82 CCIP bombing training

    A few weeks ago I stared practising CCIP bombing. For startes I selected 82 20LD2, 82 30DB2 and 82 45DB2 sleds from the Battle Book.
    Up untill now I used one of the real loadouts (just modified a little so I have 12 Mk-82 bombs) for the practice mission, but still it gave me just 6 passes, then back to airfield for the rearming and back again to targets area which is very time consuming...
    I know that there is a training mode in the A10C that I could use, but I have a few question concerning it:
    - In 'CCIP bombing training' thread I found a post Eddie in which you wrote about using training mode especially when combined with training version of the bombs (BDU-33 was mentioned). Could you please elaborate more on that?
    - when the pickle happens in the training mode is it recorded so that I can check all the parameters in the ACMI later on?

    Another question I have is about Aim-Off Point and Distance. So far I noticed that the steeper the dive angle the shorted the Aim-Off Distance is. So is there any ROT on visually find the Aim-Off Point before starting roll in? I am asking about it becaouse I am not sure if it is better to focus on the 80 + dive angle rule or looking at the Aim-Off Point during the roll-in, or both of them? Or maybe I am just trying to much to focus on the deatails here and rather than that should practice, practice and eventually all of it will resolve by itself?

    There are so many variables during the bombing run that I suppose that doing it perfect is rather exception than a rule so my question is what are the permissible differences during the training, in hight, speed and dive angle parameters for the given delivery to be considered a good one?

    Sorry if any of those questions seem to be silly, but all of this is new to me and I am just trying to find a way to master it. Thanks in advance for the answers.

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    Member JayPee's Avatar
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    Questions regarding Mk-82 CCIP bombing training

    Non-pro tip: if you are going to train with 500lbers instead of BDU 33s, take only four with you and leave the TERs at home. If you don't want to return for rearming or start over, just set your mission to unlimited ammo for the time being. You're flying an A-10, not a B-1.

    The idea of the Bbook sleds is that you get a feeling how far out you have to be along the base line and from what angle you have to roll in. After getting the hang of it you'll be able to judge for yourself when to roll in. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also search ED forums for the Comprehensive dumb bombing thread and the Battle Book thread.

    http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...ht=battle+book

    http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...FS+Battle+Book
    Last edited by JayPee; 06Jan15 at 18:33.

  3. #3
    "Training Mode" can be used with any payload configuration at all, even a clean jet. When you switch master arm to TRAIN any weapon profiles created are separate from SAFE/ARM positions, as are any weapons you load via the inventory page.

    In short, you can use the inventory page to load (in a virtual sense) any weapon configuration you wish on the jet, and you will be presented with all HUD/MFCD symbology and system behaviour as if you had those weapons actually loaded. The "virtual" payload items will disappear from the DSMS as you pickle them and everyone will be as normal, apart from the fact that nothing will actually leave the aircraft.

    This means that you can do CCIP bomb runs, or even PGM deliveries as long as your fuel lasts. Just create a new payload via the INVentory page when one load is gone.

    The only time you'll need to physically load any ordnance to make use of TRAIN mode is Mavericks, in which case you'll of course have to load TGMs or live missiles in order to get seeker video. But again, you can re-add them via the inventory page as many times as you like.

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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    - when the pickle happens in the training mode is it recorded so that I can check all the parameters in the ACMI later on?
    Sadly not no.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    Another question I have is about Aim-Off Point and Distance. So far I noticed that the steeper the dive angle the shorted the Aim-Off Distance is. So is there any ROT on visually find the Aim-Off Point before starting roll in? I am asking about it becaouse I am not sure if it is better to focus on the 80 + dive angle rule or looking at the Aim-Off Point during the roll-in, or both of them? Or maybe I am just trying to much to focus on the deatails here and rather than that should practice, practice and eventually all of it will resolve by itself?
    Not really no, beyond practice that is. The only thing that may help are using the proper canopy cues to get in the correct offset on base.

    There a pic somewhere around here I made with the references on, but I can't for the life of me find it at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    There are so many variables during the bombing run that I suppose that doing it perfect is rather exception than a rule so my question is what are the permissible differences during the training, in hight, speed and dive angle parameters for the given delivery to be considered a good one?
    There is no "permissible" error margin per-se. The closer it is to perfect the better it is.

  6. #5
    76th vFS Pilot Griffin's Avatar
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    Here is the pic you are referring to Eddie I believe!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    74th vTS: 2014 - 2014
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    Senior Member PFunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    The only time you'll need to physically load any ordnance to make use of TRAIN mode is Mavericks, in which case you'll of course have to load TGMs or live missiles in order to get seeker video. But again, you can re-add them via the inventory page as many times as you like.
    What are the limitations on this? For instance can I load 4*A65Ds in training mode and if I have a single real IR training missile on my wing will it allow me to rifle off 4 of them? Will using a G suffice for a virtual D's seeker head? Etc.

  9. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PFunk View Post
    For instance can I load 4*A65Ds in training mode and if I have a single real IR training missile on my wing will it allow me to rifle off 4 of them?
    Not actually sure in sim, I've never tried. But IRL no, you'd still need a LAU-88 as quickdraw is a function of the launcher.

    Quote Originally Posted by PFunk View Post
    Will using a G suffice for a virtual D's seeker head? Etc.
    Yes, in DCS at least, apart from force correlate of course.

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    Member JayPee's Avatar
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    Here's one particular post by Noodle which, together with attached drawing, really helped me get going.

    http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...&postcount=103

    Attachment 1575 (credit to the original artist)
    Last edited by JayPee; 06Jan15 at 20:08.

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    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    I know that there is a training mode in the A10C that I could use, but I have a few question concerning it:

    - when the pickle happens in the training mode is it recorded so that I can check all the parameters in the ACMI later on?
    Actually, yes, the release parameters for each pickle event are saved, and they can be viewed in the HUD using the IFFCC Test mode. To access the data, do the following:

    Set the IFFCC switch to TEST
    Depress the UFC SEL rocker until the ">" symbol is next to WPN REL DATA
    Depress the UFC ENT key to select the menu
    Ensure that AUTO SCROLL is set to "N" using the UFC SEL rocker
    Depress the UFC ENT key. Weapon release data will appear.
    Use the UFC SEL and ENT keys to view additional pages, or to exit the menu.

    Up to 20 weapon events are stored. Successive events overwrite previous events. The data presented varies depending upon the weapon employed. Bomb data isn't the same as Maverick or Gun data.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    So far I noticed that the steeper the dive angle the shorted the Aim-Off Distance is. So is there any ROT on visually find the Aim-Off Point before starting roll in? I am asking about it because I am not sure if it is better to focus on the 80 + dive angle rule or looking at the Aim-Off Point during the roll-in, or both of them?
    With practice you'll be able to crosscheck multiple parameters during the roll-in and be able to make corrections earlier. Dive angle + 80 is a good ROT that gets you in the ballpark, but remember that in tactical situations, you're not going to have nice Aim-Off Distance markers like you do on the training range. One technique that you can use in the tactical environment is to compare target position against the pitch ladder as you pull the nose around during roll-in. Mentally extend the Pitch Ladders out beyond the edge of the HUD, and visualize where the target is going to be when you roll-out.

    In the Battle Book, there is a parameter called Initial Target Placement (ITP). This is where the target should be when you roll-out at Track Altitude. For instance, a 45 DB Rip 6 delivery has an ITP of about 50 degrees. Thus, when I roll-out, the target should be under the -50 degree Pitch Ladder in the HUD.

    By mentally extending the Pitch Ladder during roll-in, you can identify gross errors early, and adjust your load factor and or bank angle in order to correct your wire.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    There are so many variables during the bombing run that I suppose that doing it perfect is rather exception than a rule so my question is what are the permissible differences during the training, in height, speed and dive angle parameters for the given delivery to be considered a good one?
    It's not easy to do it perfectly, no. but once you establish the correct habit patterns and validate your cockpit references, it's much easier to be CONSISTENT. Once you're consistent, then you can start altering starting parameters in order to tweak the end result.

    There is a concept called the Abort Window. You should be within a certain margin of error from your planned parameters, otherwise, you should abort the pass. For instance, Abort Altitude is driven by the planned altitude lost during dive recovery. If you're both steep and fast, your actual altitude lost will be greater than planned. If you press to the target and use the planned abort altitude, it's very likely you'll hit the ground. Here are the acceptable limits for various deliveries, taken from the Hawgsmoke training rules:

    LAS: - 2 / 25 KCAS

    LRS: 2 / 25 KCAS

    HAS: 5 / 25 KCAS

    VLD: 0-2 / 25 KCAS (280 KCAS Min for MK-82AIR)

    LAHD: 5 / 25 KCAS (280 KCAS Min for MK-82AIR)

    LATR, HATR, LALD, DB, HADB, MAT/LAT: 5 / 25 KCAS

    HARR, HARB: 10 / 25 KCAS


    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    Sorry if any of those questions seem to be silly, but all of this is new to me and I am just trying to find a way to master it. Thanks in advance for the answers.
    Not at all. These are great questions, in fact. All too often, people want to jump right to the final exam. It's better to start with the basics and build a solid foundation. Kudos.

    Quote Originally Posted by PFunk View Post
    What are the limitations on this? For instance can I load 4*A65Ds in training mode and if I have a single real IR training missile on my wing will it allow me to rifle off 4 of them? Will using a G suffice for a virtual D's seeker head? Etc.
    In earlier A-10C suites, software issues made it necessary to load certain models of Maverick missiles as something other than what they were. For instance, setting the DSMS INV for STA 9 to AGM-65H even though an AGM-65D was physically loaded. As such, it is not entirely unrealistic to do the same in DCS in order to select both EO and IIR mavericks with a single profile. Just know that the DLZ presented in the MFCD may not be correct for the actual missile.

    If at least one physical TGM is loaded on a LAU-88, then yes, if you inventory multiple virtual TGM/AGMs in the TRAINING mode, DSMS will use missile video from the one missile to simulate the others. If you want to simulate Quickdraw, you need to actually load multiple TGMs on a LAU-88.
    Last edited by Noodle; 06Jan15 at 22:24. Reason: Fixed ITP reference for a 45DB

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  14. #10
    76th vFS Pilot IronHog's Avatar
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    Thanks Eddie for all the answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    The only time you'll need to physically load any ordnance to make use of TRAIN mode is Mavericks, in which case you'll of course have to load TGMs or live missiles in order to get seeker video. But again, you can re-add them via the inventory page as many times as you like.
    Ok, I get it that there must be a live missile loaded to get seeker video when in "TRAIN" mode, but shouldn't the aircraft be loaded e.g. with training versions of weapons during practice to have a similar aircraft performance as during the real bomb run or such trainings are done with a clean jet?

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