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Thread: Questions regarding Mk-82 CCIP bombing training

  1. #21
    76th vFS Pilot IronHog's Avatar
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    First session behind me to PFunk, and I would like to get some more information about all the parameters recorded as well. There is a lot of them (5 pages per one delivery). I attached one screenshot per page and below list of parameters that I am not able to interpret with my current knowledge:

    Page 1:
    HOF/RPM - shouldn't this parameters apply only to combined munitions ?
    DIVE - ?

    Page 2:
    MSL/RDR ALT - is this an pickle altitude ?
    HAT - ?
    DPLOYTIM/ALT - ?

    Page 3:
    All unknown except KTAS/MACH

    Page 4:
    All unknown

    Page 5:
    NSATMADJ - ?
    MAX HT - ?
    OBARC - ?
    LAMW/LAMV - ?
    TTGD - is it DTOF set in the profile ?
    TTGM/MNRNG - ?

    I suppose that in the RL all this data is saved on the cartridge by DTS system so that then it can be viewed after the mission in the corresponding software? Do you guys know if this data can be somehow extracted in DCS for the further processing (it's rather hard to read it directly from the HUD in the cockpit) ? Of course the best solution would be if TacView supported all the parameters including "TRAINING" mode of the A10C.

    CCIP-1.jpgCCIP-2.jpgCCIP-3.jpgCCIP-4.jpgCCIP-5.jpg

  2. #22

    KOVIC


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    Snoopy's Avatar
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    Page 1:
    Dive - Your Dive angle

    Page 2:
    MSL/RDR ALT - Altitude above mean sea level/Radar Altitude
    HAT - Height above target
    DPLOYTIM/ALT - Deploy time/Deploy altitude

    Page 3:
    KTAS/MACH - Knots True Airspeed/Your mach number

    Page 5:
    NSATMADJ - Non-Standard atmosphere altitude adjustment.
    MAX HT - Bomb trajectory maximum height
    OBARC - Dynamic pressure
    LAMW/LAMV - CCIP bomb lead angle with respect to the aircraft azimuth and with respect to the aircraft elevation
    TTGD - Desired time to go.
    TTGM/MNRNG - Minimum tim to go/Minimum range

  3. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Snoopy For This Useful Post:

    IronHog (09Jan15), JayPee (09Jan15), Noodle (09Jan15), Spokejocky (09Jan15)

  4. #23
    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PFunk View Post
    So I did a session with BDU-33s and saved the release data. I could use some help interpreting it however.
    Post the parameters, or screenshots like IronHog did, and we can go through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronHog View Post
    I suppose that in the RL all this data is saved on the cartridge by DTS system so that then it can be viewed after the mission in the corresponding software? Do you guys know if this data can be somehow extracted in DCS for the further processing (it's rather hard to read it directly from the HUD in the cockpit) ? Of course the best solution would be if TacView supported all the parameters including "TRAINING" mode of the A10C.
    The data is downloaded to the DTC and in addition, pilots can also use the AUTOSCROLL feature which quickly and automatically scrolls through each page after a delivery, thus recording the data on the VTR tape.

    Myself and others approached ED about outputting the data to a LUA, as part of a larger plan to get a simulated A/W/E planner working for DCS. Unfortunately, ED is not interested in supporting our endeavor.

  5. #24
    Senior Member PFunk's Avatar
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    I noticed that every release event means every bomb has its own entry. I'm looking to know for sure what each of the pages has to offer me and whether there's anything beyond the obvious of comparing my release params here to my sleds that I can get out of this data.

    I'm prepared personally to begin approaching my (re)education on all these topics from a very academic point of view so whatever there is to offer I'm interested in even if it seems dry.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #25
    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    So right off the bat, a "pass" - regardless of ripple quantity - is 1 event and should have 5 pages of data. If you're seeing a set of 5 pages of data for each discrete weapon in a ripple release, that's wrong. To be honest, I've only ever tested it using singles, so I never noticed the error.

    But to answer your question, "it depends".

    The most beneficial aspect of accessing/reviewing the data is indeed to compare actual release parameters to the planned parameters in order to analyze your errors. Check for gross errors in dive angle and airspeed first. Those indicate serious problems in your geometry that need to be fixed before going any further.

    You need to be able to be consistently hit your desired Base parameters first. That happens through flying the DAPS or Battle Book deliveries, and noting target placement in relation to known angles as measured by cockpit references. Once you're able to do that, work on mechanically flying the roll-in and refining target position using RTP so as to arrive at Track altitude on speed and on the correct wire.

    Next, work on setting different track references; ITP, IPP, IAA, and finally the DRC. I'd also say to focus on abort cues, but the RTSE hasn't been working right for a while. perhaps with more detailed analysis, I can figure out exactly where the problem lies...I'm eyeballing the MRS CRIT entry.

    Finally make sure you methodically and mechanically fly the SEM until you do it without thinking. You can fly the best W/D pass known to man but dick up the SEM and frag yourself.

    Assuming that you're in a place where all of that is second nature, then use the data capture pages to analyze your ability to hit the planned parameters. Are you consistently steep, fast, applying excess load factor, imparting sideslip? Use the calculated lat/long to calculate aiming error from the DMPI. Analyze the effect of wind at release altitude on the weapon point of impact. Analyze the effect of any combat offset you might be applying as a result of previous misses, etc.

    Also, and maybe I should have mentioned this up front, but there's not too much training value in dropping BDU-33s unless you "crank" the parameters to simulate a MK-82. This includes artificially raising the release and abort altitudes to simulate those that would be associated with a MK-82. This requires a longer BDU-33 DTOF in order to generate the correct DRC and RTSE indications. Otherwise, the sight picture you see out the canopy is not one you'll ever encounter in combat, thus wasted training.

    There's a process for doing all of that, and I'll post it tomorrow after I get home from work.

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  8. #26
    Member JayPee's Avatar
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    And another great read in the morning. Others read the news paper first thing they do when showing up at work, I am reading how to properly drop Mark 82s. Well, each their own huh..

    I did know you can briefly (or for 2 full seconds) have the weapon data show up upon release but I never knew you can record it. Will be messing around with it this weekend for sure!
    Last edited by JayPee; 09Jan15 at 10:18.

  9. #27
    Senior Member PFunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    So right off the bat, a "pass" - regardless of ripple quantity - is 1 event and should have 5 pages of data. If you're seeing a set of 5 pages of data for each discrete weapon in a ripple release, that's wrong. To be honest, I've only ever tested it using singles, so I never noticed the error.
    I dropped twelve bombs in six 30DB2 passes, but on review had twelve 5 page collections of data with each bomb appearing to have its own event that had an identical time stamp for the ripple but with different data such as a slightly lower release alt. So it seems that with any ripple it creates a page for each bomb, but I haven't checked on ripples larger than 2.


    As for the stages from my own observations I need to work on my base parameters since thats lacking (along with everything else). I'd say only 2-3 out of 6 passes would have met Hawgsmoke safety guidelines.

    Now if BDU-33s are largely useless what is their purpose? Are they only used 'cranked' to mimic Mk82s or are they more used generally on training aircraft to teach the mechanics of bombing and less used on fleet craft? The obvious choice of BDU-33 seems to be having the opportunity to drop lots of real bombs without RTBing.

    So then is it better for me to use BDU-50s exclusively or would 'cranking' BDU-33s suffice? Is a 30DB a sensible attack to work on as a base? Does it make a difference to do only singles or is there a reason to train with ripples? Would cranking a profile to match the Mk82 simply be a matter of changing the FLOOR OVRD until the DTOF is the same?

    Oh so many questions.
    Last edited by PFunk; 09Jan15 at 08:27.

  10. #28

    Da FAC?


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    Cranking the BDU-33 settings means that you run DAPS a couple of times to end up having BDU-33 profile, but with MK-82 profile data.
    It's pretty simple to do, but I let Noodle explain it, he's better at that

    Providing CAS when you're all out of HUA!

  11. #29
    76th vFS Pilot IronHog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Page 1:
    Dive - Your Dive angle

    Page 2:
    MSL/RDR ALT - Altitude above mean sea level/Radar Altitude
    HAT - Height above target
    DPLOYTIM/ALT - Deploy time/Deploy altitude

    Page 3:
    KTAS/MACH - Knots True Airspeed/Your mach number

    Page 5:
    NSATMADJ - Non-Standard atmosphere altitude adjustment.
    MAX HT - Bomb trajectory maximum height
    OBARC - Dynamic pressure
    LAMW/LAMV - CCIP bomb lead angle with respect to the aircraft azimuth and with respect to the aircraft elevation
    TTGD - Desired time to go.
    TTGM/MNRNG - Minimum tim to go/Minimum range

    Snoopy, could you please explain also all the parameters on Page 4, and all except KTAS/MACH on Page 3 ?

    Concerning:
    - dive angle - I am pretty sure that in the example data from images I performed 30 degree dive, so I why is the angle here almost 70 degrees ?
    - DPLOYTIM/ALT - both set to 0 in this example - I suppose it is a bug ?

  12. #30
    Member JayPee's Avatar
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    What do you guys mean by setting up a BDU-33 as an MK-82? I thought I've read in the DCS Manual or some other ED document that the BDU-33 has all the flight characteristics of an 82 by default?

    Practice ordnance includes 25-pound BDU-33 bombs having a spotting charge that releases a cloud of smoke on impact. The BDU-33 is used to simulate the MK 82 in low drag configuration. The BDU-33 is a small cast-iron and steel non-explosive ordnance that is used in training to simulate actual bombs. These training munitions, by design, have similar flight and delivery behavior to war shot munitions.
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ons/bdu-33.htm
    I'm confused..
    Last edited by JayPee; 09Jan15 at 10:40.

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