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Thread: Basic Weapon Delivery

  1. #11
    Retired Pilot Tex's Avatar
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    Follow up question about the abort altitude. Is that a "go no lower than" or is where I start my SEM? And if I am dropping RPL SGL, qty 6 and hit abort altitude mid string, what is the proper procedure? Thanks again in advance.

  2. #12
    Member Crom's Avatar
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    Tex we are jumping out of c130 tomorrow, you or know the crew?
    Crom Wills it[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    C-130 rollin down th.....I hate that cadence. Just thought I would share

  4. #14
    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Abort Altitude is the altitude at which the pass must be aborted, i.e. the altitude at which you must begin the SEM. Like a DH/DA, you will descend below the Abort Altitude during recovery.

    It's cranked to account for altitude lost during a ripple delivery, so as long as you're on the pickle button at or before Abort Altitude, you're fine. However, this assumes that you're on parameters...if you're more than 5 degrees steep and/or more than 10??? knots fast, CWDS generated Abort Altitude is invalidated. It's best to use the Real Time Safe Escape (RTSE) cues like the MRS, MRC, and VSI.

    Unfortunately, with the exception of the DRC, the dynamic CCIP cues are incorrect in DCS. Sad panda.

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    Retired Pilot Tex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crom View Post
    Tex we are jumping out of c130 tomorrow, you or know the crew?
    Definitely not me. I'm stuck in a staff job for the next couple years. What squadron and where you dropping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer View Post
    C-130 rollin down th.....I hate that cadence. Just thought I would share
    Can't imagine why. I thought the Army liked waiting on the ramp for an hour during an ETIC, strapping into the red seats in the middle of summer with no AC, bouncing around on a low level only to find yourself stuck in a tree off DZ. Have I been mis-informed all these years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    Abort Altitude is the altitude at which the pass must be aborted, i.e. the altitude at which you must begin the SEM. Like a DH/DA, you will descend below the Abort Altitude during recovery.

    It's cranked to account for altitude lost during a ripple delivery, so as long as you're on the pickle button at or before Abort Altitude, you're fine. However, this assumes that you're on parameters...if you're more than 5 degrees steep and/or more than 10??? knots fast, CWDS generated Abort Altitude is invalidated. It's best to use the Real Time Safe Escape (RTSE) cues like the MRS, MRC, and VSI.

    Unfortunately, with the exception of the DRC, the dynamic CCIP cues are incorrect in DCS. Sad panda.
    Thanks Noodle. Clears it up perfectly.
    Last edited by Tex; 11Mar15 at 03:15.

  7. #16
    Member Crom's Avatar
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    Gulch DZ For carson, 10thsfg. as far as the bird ill let ya know tomorrow
    Crom Wills it[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #17
    Member Hansolo's Avatar
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    HUD at track altitude

    Very nice sketch you have made Tex.

    I don’t mean to hijack your thread but my questions are somewhat along the same lines. Since my lineup aren’t perfect I have also taken the liberty to make a drawing which in my interpretations should be what it looks like in the HUD when at track altitude on wire, please see (https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6sa1z4xk6...awing.pdf?dl=0).
    The example is for an 82 30DB2

    As far as I have understood TVV should be on Aim Of Point, Target should be on a pitch ladder 6 degree lower than dive angle (Initial Aim of Angle =6, dive angle=30) ~ 36 degree, and DRC should be close to target when at track altitude.
    Now here are the assumptions that I hope some of you guys can clarify.

    1. If I interpret the z-diagram correct then the number 7 at MILS/IPP is describing that the Initial Pipper Placement at track altitude should be 7 degree lower than Target, e.g. here at 43 degree pitch ladder, Correct?

    2. If I understand the Initial HUD Placement then it describes the target should initially be 178 mils lower than Zero Sight Line at track altitude. I have calculated back where the ZSL is by using 178/17.45 ~ 10degree. That will place ZSL at 26 degree pitch ladder. From calculated ZSL I can verify the IPP using MILS 243 and convert that into degree ~ 14 degree. However then the pipper should be at 40 degree pitch ladder which isn’t the same place as using the IPP=7 degree. Question it this just because I have gone academic on the numbers, but my overall interpretations are correct. Or have I just misunderstood it all 

    3. If I am correct in the assumption that IPP is pipper placement in relation to target at track altitude, then why is IPP for 82 30DB6 negative?? That would mean that pipper is above target and I should already have released?

    Anyway if any of above is too tedious please feel free to deleted it. I had actually promised you all that I would be hiding in the shadows

    Sorry for the inconvinience caused

    All the best
    Hans
    Last edited by Hansolo; 17Mar15 at 08:41.

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  10. #18
    Senior Member PFunk's Avatar
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    This is begging for a Noodle reply.

  11. #19

    KOVIC


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    I'm sure noodles answer would be much better but while we wait....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansolo
    Very nice sketch you have made Tex.

    I don’t mean to hijack your thread but my questions are somewhat along the
    same lines. Since my lineup aren’t perfect I have also taken the liberty to
    make a drawing which in my interpretations should be what it looks like in
    the HUD when at track altitude on wire, please see
    (https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6sa1z4xk6...awing.pdf?dl=0).
    The example is for an 82 30DB2.....
    Here is what we're putting together for the A-10C TTP (WIP)...



    Roll-In Target Placement References
    Once a pilot has established the correct canopy rail reference pilots will
    then develop a roll-in target placement to aid in establishing the proper
    aim-off distance for the base let. TRP references are measured left or
    right from the center of the HUD. RTP references are valid 2 seconds prior
    to the track. Bank the aircraft and pull the TRP reference to the target.
    This will establish the aircraft on the correct plane of motion. As the
    target passes the canopy bow and approaches the HUD transition from the RTP
    reference to roll out visual cues.

    Pull the gun bore line or center of the top of the HUD to the AOP is one
    technique used to roll-in to establish the aircraft on the correct wire and
    validate RTP references. DO NOT use the TVV as a reference as it
    will lag behind the actual aircraft parameters.

    Initial target Placement
    During the roll-in refine the dive angle using the pitch ladder. Once the
    aircraft is halfway through the turn check the HUD pitch ladder to estimate
    if the target will be located at the correct angle when the aircraft rolls
    out. If the target is less than planned relax back pressure while
    decreasing back and adjust the AOP longer than planned. If the target is
    greater than planned increase bank angle and “G” to adjust the AOP shorter
    than planned.

    Rollout (Center)
    Relax G during the roll-in as the top of the HUD approaches the target.
    During CCIP, as the HUD pitch ladders approach the target begin an unloaded
    roll. The pitch ladders should bracket the target once the rollout is
    completed. If the target is not centered make the appropriate 3/9
    corrections. Once centered place the PBIL through the target and set your
    track reference. Adjust the throttles as required to establish the correct
    airspeed at release. As a reference, throttle settings should be set as
    shown below but can vary based on base airspeed and configuration.

    Delivery - Throttle Setting
    • 10 LAHD - Max
    • 20 LALD - Max
    • 30 DB - Max
    • 45 DB - Stand-Up
    • 45 HADB - Idle
    • 60 DB - Idle

    Track Reference
    In CCIP the desired release cue (DRC) is the best tracking reference. The
    DRC continuously computes and corrects for changes in AOA, G-loading, and
    airspeed. Set the DRC 2 to 5 mils above the target at track altitude. This
    establishes and refines the AOP for a correct wire.

    IHP is the angular representation (in mils ) of the target relative to the
    ZLS. The pilot requires accurate wind information and must add/subtract the
    applicable head/tail wind component. Note, the depressible pipper does not
    provide crosswind correction therefore it is important to center the target
    between the pitch ladders while cross checking the target abeam the
    depressible pipper at track altitude and continue with the normal track
    until release.

    IIA is the planned angle between the AOP and the target at track altitude.

    Pipper Track
    Use smooth, coordinated control inputs when on final. Divide attention
    between the movement rate of the pipper and the aircraft parameters. For
    CCIP use the projected bomb impact line (PBIL) to fly the CCIP pipper to the
    target. The CCIP pipper will track quickly to the target, avoid attempting
    to slow the pipper down by deploying speedbrakes. One technique to help
    smooth the pipper track is to trim nose down one “click” for each 10 degrees
    of planned dive. This can be accomplished on base, continue to trim as
    required through the toll-in or after establishing your track.

    Pickle
    Release the weapon with the aiming reference on the target making
    adjustments as needed on proceeding attempts.

    Recovery
    As soon as the munition is released begin the recovery. The primary concern
    is hitting the ground or descending below an established altitude, being hit
    by fragmentation from the munition or delivering a weapon with a time of
    fall below the fusing time. The planned recovery maneuvers for free-falling
    munitions are CLM and TLT SEM. Generally for low-altitude deliveries (20
    or less) execute a TLT SEM, for anything over 20 execute a CLM SEM. The
    SEM must be executed immediately after weapons release. Maintain the
    minimum aircraft “G” for duration of the maneuver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansolo
    Anyway if any of above is too tedious please feel free to
    deleted it. I had actually promised you all that I would be hiding in the
    shadows

    Sorry for the inconvenience caused
    No inconvenience, we're here to help (when we can lol)

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  13. #20
    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Sorry, this is going to be a shorter answer than I would normally give. Here goes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansolo View Post
    As far as I have understood TVV should be on Aim Of Point, Target should be on a pitch ladder 6 degree lower than dive angle (Initial Aim of Angle =6, dive angle=30) ~ 36 degree, and DRC should be close to target when at track altitude.
    Now here are the assumptions that I hope some of you guys can clarify.
    I don't specifically recall where we got the data for the sleds that are contained in the Battle Book, so I ran the delivery through the current version of DAPS - our internal weapon delivery calculator - and came up with fresh numbers.

    Assuming an 82 30DB2 delivery, I show an IAA of 6.4 degrees. So the target should appear at 36.4 degrees on the Pitch Ladder. This is pretty close to the value you stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansolo View Post
    1. If I interpret the z-diagram correct then the number 7 at MILS/IPP is describing that the Initial Pipper Placement at track altitude should be 7 degree lower than Target, e.g. here at 43 degree pitch ladder, Correct?
    Something is wrong here. The most likely explanation is that the Battle Book was created with an early version of DAPS which did not adequately account for aircraft AoA, and which incorrectly expressed IPP in degrees. Calculating AoA is necessary because some values use SDFP - which is referenced to the TVV - as a starting point, while others use TSS, which is referenced to ZSL.


    Regardless, the correct IPP value is 43 mils. This would put the pipper in the vicinity of 39 degrees on the Pitch Ladder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansolo View Post
    2. If I understand the Initial HUD Placement then it describes the target should initially be 178 mils lower than Zero Sight Line at track altitude. I have calculated back where the ZSL is by using 178/17.45 ~ 10degree. That will place ZSL at 26 degree pitch ladder. From calculated ZSL I can verify the IPP using MILS 243 and convert that into degree ~ 14 degree. However then the pipper should be at 40 degree pitch ladder which isn’t the same place as using the IPP=7 degree. Question it this just because I have gone academic on the numbers, but my overall interpretations are correct. Or have I just misunderstood it all
    With a 30 degree dive angle and a computed AoA of 54.9 mils, the ZSL is in the vicinity of 27 degrees on the Pitch Ladder.

    Actual IHP should be 167 mils. This puts the target at about 36.5 degrees on the Pitch Ladder, which corroborates the value we obtained earlier by adding IAA to dive angle to arrive at 36.4 degrees.

    Total Sight Setting (the angle between ZSL and the Pipper) is 210 mils.

    Sight Depression from Flight Path = 155 mils

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansolo View Post
    3. If I am correct in the assumption that IPP is pipper placement in relation to target at track altitude, then why is IPP for 82 30DB6 negative?? That would mean that pipper is above target and I should already have released?
    Yes, the definition of IPP is the angle between the target and the pipper at Track Altitude. The values should never be negative, and this is an error in the Battle Book sleds. Correct values are obtained using the current version of DAPS.

    I don't have any plans to release DAPS to the community at large, so the best way forward would be to revise the Battle Book values using deliveries calculated by the current version of DAPS, and re-release the document to the community.

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by Noodle; 18Mar15 at 06:04.

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