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Thread: Close Air Support TTP's and questions

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    Member Widow's Avatar
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    Close Air Support TTP's and questions

    Hey guys..

    Iv started this thread in case anybody has any questions about CAS.

    Please ask me anything about CAS and i will answer as quick as i can, if don't know the answer i will find it out.

    A little about myself,
    Iv been a JTAC/FAC/TACP and JFO for over 10 years whilst in the British Army, i know work for a company who provide CAS training to worlds JTAC's & Pilots, through our own simulator and our live aircraft.

    So please feel free to ask away

    Widow

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    Member Crom's Avatar
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    Sweet great to have you offer your knowledge, dropping bombs is a blast.
    Crom Wills it[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Thanks Widow!

    When passing 9-lines, what do you generally use as your elevation data source? Are you required to pass Estimated Vertical Error to the aircrew if the source is something like a paper map vice an electronic source with DTED?

    How frequently do you generate target able 10-digit grid coordinates? Is that the standard, or is it only done when the intent is to employ IAMs?

    How often and under what circumstances do you pass surface weather conditions? Do you pass anything other than ceiling, altimeter, and surface winds?

    How prolific is the use of digital CAS? How frequently do you use data link messages for target assignment and/or BDA? How frequently is ROVER capability used or useful?

    When is a TACP used instead of a JTAC?

    Are JTAC/TACP able to provide other services to aircraft like a CCT would, or are they limited to TAC?

    Assuming a high-intensity conflict where you were attached to a maneuver element pushing forward at the FEBA, what method do you use to establish IPs as you move? Do you prefer the Keyhole or some other method of predetermined IP location?

    Who coordinates airspace control when using joint fires? Specifically using arty as SEAD. Do you brief the altitude blocks and timing to the aircrew yourself during the 9-line remarks?

    Can you give us an example of a typical AO update that you might pass to an aircrew? Does the AO update usually include the commander's intent?

    What's the procedure for releasing a fighter from your control post-attack? How does the procedure differ when you've run out of targets, vice when your asset has run out of fuel/weapons? (I mean procedurally, are you required to give BDA and a frequency change, or does the flight lead basically say "see ya", or what?)

    Thanks! I didn't mean to ask so many questions...I just had a stream of consciousness...my apologies!

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    Member Crom's Avatar
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    In SOF land we use Tacp assigned to our Oda's. They are trained to the same standard as Us Operators which is a big help.
    Crom Wills it[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    GOMER 2 Noodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crom View Post
    In SOF land we use Tacp assigned to our Oda's. They are trained to the same standard as Us Operators which is a big help.
    Thanks Crom. I was under the impression that most STS guys attached to ODA teams were CCTs. Or are CCTs typically assigned to a TACP?

    I remember reading the story of ODA 574 during OEF and the fratricide that occurred because poor TAC.

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    Well Noodle...
    Plenty of questions, lets get stuck in

    When passing 9-lines, what do you generally use as your elevation data source? Are you required to pass Estimated Vertical Error to the aircrew if the source is something like a paper map vice an electronic source with DTED?

    We generally use map data, unless you do have an electronic device that has DTED, like some sort of DACAS device. Or if you have used a LRF to get coords. No we would'nt pass EVE.

    How frequently do you generate target able 10-digit grid coordinates? Is that the standard, or is it only done when the intent is to employ IAMs?

    You always want to give the most accurate coord you can, It also depends on weather your doing a Bomb On Target or Bomb On Coordinate, if its BOT then you pass an 6-8 fig grid, then talk the pilot on to the target, if its BOC then you need the most accurate coord as the pilot will be dropping a GPS weapon like a GBU 38.

    How often and under what circumstances do you pass surface weather conditions? Do you pass anything other than ceiling, altimeter, and surface winds?

    Well, the brits very rarely send surface winds, or weather at all as the pilots will have a better view of the clouds and other bits, the JTAC will have to be aware of all weather aspects as it will be something to consider in his planning process.

    How prolific is the use of digital CAS? How frequently do you use data link messages for target assignment and/or BDA? How frequently is ROVER capability used or useful?

    Well DACAS is in its infancy at the moment, theres software out there, one of which i use on a daily basis, FACNAV. The procedures are still being decided by the US JFS ECS and NATO FCS, even tho all the systems can send and receive data, its not decided weather the SA update and 9line is sent digitally and then verbal clearances or all digital.
    ROVER is used when ever we can, downlink is by far one of the best tools a JTAC has, being able to see exactly what the pilot sees makes life so much easier, unlike a Type 2 Med level talk on, where the JTAC has to get the pilot to find his target out of a wide area (we have techniques for this) FMV( Full Motion Video) enables us to have a small area that we are looking at together and easily ID targets.

    When is a TACP used instead of a JTAC?

    TACP and JTAC are generally the same thing. The other name that you may here is FAC (Forward Air Controller) only difference between TACP/JTAC and FAC's is that JTAC's can call in artillery, FAC's cant.
    In the US the US airforce train TACP's, who as i said are JTAC'S, they are trained to the US standards.
    In europe, they train to NATO standards, and called FAC's
    The US Marines train to US standards but are called FAC's
    The British are trained to both US & NATO as well as our own standards, which makes us unique that we are able to adapt to who we are working with. All our guys are Called FAC's unless you are trained to call in artillery, which i am. Then our TACP's are JTAC's just work in a four man team with two JTAC's and two ROMADS but work at Battlegroup leve and JTAC's work at company level
    However...saying all that, the US & NATO have just agreed that they will all be called JTAC's from no on

    Are JTAC/TACP able to provide other services to aircraft like a CCT would, or are they limited to TAC?
    As previous said, JTAC does arty support and CAS (Close Air Support), which is there primary role.

    Assuming a high-intensity conflict where you were attached to a maneuver element pushing forward at the FEBA, what method do you use to establish IPs as you move? Do you prefer the Keyhole or some other method of predetermined IP location?

    IP's are generally created by either the ASOC or CAOC, not often does the JTAC establish IP's, i would rather establish echo point and give either A,B,C,D and a distance.

    Who coordinates airspace control when using joint fires? Specifically using arty as SEAD. Do you brief the altitude blocks and timing to the aircrew yourself during the 9-line remarks?

    The JTAC would generally run his own airspace, he would call the TACP and ask to establish a ROZ (Restricted Operating Zone) normally 5NM wide SFC to 16000ft, that request would go to the ASOC and then the once established the JTAC has control. so anything that happens within that ROZ is under control of the JTAC, that goes for aircraft being allowed in or out, what altitude to be at and what area of the ROZ to be in.
    When the A/C checks in, the JTAC will give the A/C his block to be in, if its a pair the JTAC would give him 2000-4000ft block and let them de conflict between them.
    For joint fires, the JTAC will de conflict joint fires and the aircraft, either by Time, Height or laterally. Now sometimes the airspace is controlled by a higher agency like the CAOC, like in Afghan towards the end, the JTAC had no real control over the airspace, the Killboxes and keypads were controlled by CAOC and the pilot would request changes.

    Can you give us an example of a typical AO update that you might pass to an aircrew? Does the AO update usually include the commander's intent?

    The friendly forces intent would be included in the SA update, so here is an explanation of each heading and then an example
    Procedurally An SA update is given when ever the A/C checkins in, so the pilot has an understanding of the area, only time we wouldn't is if we are under contact and need effects on the ground immediately

    Threats - This where you would mention what SA threats
    Target - Here we mention the targets that we have in the AO (Area Of Operations)
    Friendlies - This is where we explain who we are and a very brief SOM (Scheme Of Manoeuvre) never give freindlies accurate grid as it may be confused as a target grid later
    Artillery - We mention what artillery we may be using where it is and if the GTL (Gun Target Line) is hot and what its MVH (Max Vertec Height)
    Clearance Authority - Who has clearance authority and for what
    Ordanace requested - what weapons we want to use, how ever if you dont know what the target is yet, you can just say "Weapon to target Match" also depends on what the aircraft has checked in with
    Restrictions - here we mention any restrictions we place on the aircraft
    SEAD - Any kind of localised SEAD in the area
    Hazards - any physical hazrds there may be to the aircraft, if hes coming in LL, like power pylons.
    Weather - Here you can mention the weather, but as mentioned earlier, we normally dont.

    Threat - MANPADS in the area
    Targets - Armour, technicals and dismounts
    Friendlies - Armour Coy + in warriors moving north along route yellow with anchor Op at Grid xx, approx x amour of vehicles, JTAC is located xxx
    Artillery - 155mm located at grid xx MVH 500ft including PVB GLT 270deg
    Clearance - Widow 19, types 1,2,3
    Ordnance - Weapon to target matching
    Restrictions - Remain feet wet in current block due to MANPAD, no weapons release over friendlies

    What's the procedure for releasing a fighter from your control post-attack? How does the procedure differ when you've run out of targets, vice when your asset has run out of fuel/weapons? (I mean procedurally, are you required to give BDA and a frequency change, or does the flight lead basically say "see ya", or what?)

    So..there's really no difference, you would always give BDA after each attack or if unable when he checks out, you would mention to flick freq back to TOC, but pilots know what to flick to anyway as they would have there backbox up on TOC.

    Thanks! I didn't mean to ask so many questions...I just had a stream of consciousness...my apologies![/QUOTE]

    Dont worry about all the questions, i really don't mind, i hope i have answered some of your questions, if you would like some of thei expanded let me know.

    Widow

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    Member Widow's Avatar
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    Ummm ok, that was a bit long..sorry for the essay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crom View Post
    In SOF land we use Tacp assigned to our Oda's. They are trained to the same standard as Us Operators which is a big help.
    Speaking from my combat experience and ongoing experience we a in ODA's. Have always had an Airforce TacP. Granted things are always fluid and you get what ya get.
    Crom Wills it[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Clippy


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    Hey Widow,

    When requesting AC-130 support, which if i remember correctly is a call for fire which grants clearance to engage to the aircrew by definition, if there is rotary wing a/c operating in the target aerea (e.g.: integrating an apache, or transport/extract) does this mean the gunship becomes in charge of deconfliction/terminal attack control or there's further FACing needed by the JTAC?

    I know i know there's no ac130 in dcs, i just love that bird *ehem ehem*

    WHAC-A-MOLE JTAC 11+13

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    Hey Kimi

    Yes that's right its a call for fire, or a 5 Line.

    A call for fire doesn't grant the crew to engage under there own steam. They still have to wait for a clearance from the JTAC, unless its a type 3.

    The de-confliction will still be handled by the JTAC in control of the airspace.

    The Gunpig is a bit of a beast

    Widow

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