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Thread: A-10 In the News...

  1. #11
    Retired Pilot Tex's Avatar
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    Remembering the father of the A-10 Warthog

    From the news today...
    The unmistakable roar of the A-10's powerful engines echoed throughout Arlington National Cemetery this month as four aircraft saluted retired Col. Avery Kay for the last time with a rare flyover of the historic burial site.

    Kay, 96, died on October 29 and was buried with full military honors.

    A highly decorated navigator who led some of the most dangerous bombing raids against Germany during World War II, Kay was also credited with launching the concept of the A-10 Thunderbolt, better known as the Warthog.

    Despite lacking the air-to-air combat ability of the F-15 Eagle and the high-tech stealth capabilities of the F-22 Raptor, the U.S. Air Force still uses the A-10 to support ground forces in close combat more than 40 years after its first flight in 1975.

    But if it hadn't been for Kay, this iconic plane may have been grounded before ever seeing battle.

    As an adviser to then-Air Force Chief of Staff John McConnell in the 1960s, Kay put his professional reputation on the line and led the fight to create a plane specifically designed to assist troops on the ground.

    "Without Col. Kay, there would be no A-10 today," said Pierre Sprey, a former Pentagon official who helped Kay design the plane despite objections from many in the Air Force leadership.

    At the time, the issue of close air support was at the center of a contentious budget debate between the Army and the Air Force over how to divide funding for fixed-wing planes and helicopters.

    Army leaders often argued it took too long for the Air Force to respond to calls for assistance, specifically during the Vietnam War, and demanded control of budget funds to develop their own heavily armed helicopter that could better meet their needs.

    The Air Force, however, wanted control over the development of all fixed-wing aircraft and insisted that any type of plane could perform close air support.

    But in reality, the Air Force's top generals had little interest in dedicating budget dollars for improving support for ground troops, as they preferred planes that could carry out bombing missions deep in enemy territory.

    Spearheading negotiations between the two service branches, Kay proposed an agreement under which the Army would relinquish control of the development of all fixed-wing aircraft as long as the Air Force fulfilled its promise to build a plane that was able to provide the air support that was lacking during Vietnam.

    Using the very real threat of the Army's plan to build a helicopter to take over Air Force close support, Kay convinced McConnell that if the Army got its funding approved, he would go down in Air Force history as the chief that lost the close support mission and the money that goes along with it.

    To counter the Army's proposal, Kay pitched a plan to build an airplane dedicated to the close support missions that would be cheaper and more effective than any helicopter.

    McConnell approved the plan, but Kay quickly realized that he would have to circumvent the normal chain of command to fulfill his promise to the Army, as many of the Air Force's top generals still lacked interest in spending budget dollars on this cause.

    Rather than approaching the Air Staff and Tactical command offices, which normally facilitate the building of new planes, Kay reached out to Sprey, who was working for the defense secretary, to help make his plan for the A-10 become a reality.

    "What he did at this point is he put his career on the line," Sprey recalled.

    Together, Kay and Sprey worked in secret to develop an aircraft that could cover ground troops from an enemy advance, buying time for grunts to regroup or get out with an aerial weapons strike.

    "The entire A-10 community is basically due to his guts and his integrity," Sprey said. "If anyone deserves the title of 'father of the A-10,' Col. Kay definitely does."

    The A-10 has saved the lives of countless troops during each of the last four wars fought by the United States and is used today in the fight against ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

    But today, the war bird is fighting a similar funding battle to the one Kay faced in the 1960s, surviving year to year because of the strain on Air Force funds resulting from budget sequestration.

    Pentagon leadership thinks the A-10 is too expensive to maintain under the current spending limits when other aircraft can fill similar roles. And several lawmakers involved with military allocations believe other expensive undertakings -- such as finding ways to neutralize the deadly improvised explosive devices U.S. soldiers face in the Middle East -- are higher funding priorities.

    Looming over the debate is the sleek, super-high-tech, massively expensive F-35 Lightning, which was expected to replace the A-10 as the Air Force's primary close air support aircraft. Despite its potential, the F-35 has been riddled with setbacks and is still a long way from deployment.

    In January, Gen. David Goldfein, the Air Force's vice chief of staff, told Defense News the rise of ISIS and the U.S. air campaign to fight the terror group has prompted the service to reconsider plans to retire the A-10.

    "When we made the decision on retiring the A-10, we made those decisions prior to ISIL, we were not in Iraq, we were coming out of Afghanistan to a large extent, we didn't have a resurgent Russia," Goldfein said in an interview on "Defense News With Vago Muradian."

    Goldfein's office confirmed the general's remarks to CNN.

    The retirement of the A-10 was not part of the Pentagon budget request submitted to Congress in February, but the plane's long-term future remains in question.
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/22/politi...yby/index.html
    “Rules are made for people who aren't willing to make up their own. " - Chuck Yeager

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  3. #12
    Retired Pilot Tex's Avatar
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    F-35 vs A-10

    In the news today...

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/28/politi...own/index.html

    I'll be interested to see how they compare apples and oranges. In a permissive environment, I don't think the F-35 can compete with the Hog in the CAS role. In a contested environment, I'm not sure the Hog even gets to the fight...
    Last edited by Tex; 28Apr16 at 12:48.
    “Rules are made for people who aren't willing to make up their own. " - Chuck Yeager

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    476 vFG Founder Snoopy's Avatar
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    IMO it's just a smoke show to try and please Congress.

  5. #14

    Amytollah


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    I'm on the 35's right now and they are quite impressive. It can't do the CAS job as well, and that's being generous, of the A-10 for sure. But keeping them, in my opinion is a bad call. If the 35 can do even just half as good of a job then the A-10 program should go. It would save the AF a lot of money. Keeping a handful of squadrons only save a little money if any. Just because you still have to keep all the depot and other infrastructure in place. Don't get me wrong, I like the A-10. But it's getting old, and if it's like the 16, which is "newer", than its falling a part.

  6. #15
    Junior Member Chilly's Avatar
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    I'm with Snoopy here. We shouldn't need to pit the F-35 versus the A-10. They are totally different platforms meant for two completely different roles. This is just a way for them to skew the results of that competition IMO.

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    476 vFG Founder Snoopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMEDooley View Post
    I'm on the 35's right now and they are quite impressive. It can't do the CAS job as well, and that's being generous, of the A-10 for sure. But keeping them, in my opinion is a bad call. If the 35 can do even just half as good of a job then the A-10 program should go. It would save the AF a lot of money. Keeping a handful of squadrons only save a little money if any. Just because you still have to keep all the depot and other infrastructure in place. Don't get me wrong, I like the A-10. But it's getting old, and if it's like the 16, which is "newer", than its falling a part.
    I'm on A-10s and just returning stateside from a deployment so you can quickly get on my bad side posting that Lets just say the A-10 had the best FMC rate in the AOR during my deployment. Other than that I can't go into detail but we kicked ass!

    and LOL at your "just half as good of a job" so basically you're saying we should only protect the boots on the ground half as good?

    And lets not talk cost, cost per flight hour on the A-10 is pennies compared to every other airframe (not counting drones) in the USAF inventory. And that's including the logistics and depot costs.



    Will the A-10 be retired before I do, I'm sure it will be. But for the wars we've been fighting the last 15 years she's perfect for. She may not be for the next one but she is now. If they can pull OV-10s out of the bone yard to use for spec ops (google it) than we can afford to keep a few hundred A-10s.

    (slowly steps off my soap box)
    Last edited by Snoopy; 28Apr16 at 15:44.

  8. #17
    Junior Member Chilly's Avatar
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    First off, a ^.
    Second, historically speaking A-10's have VERY high FMC rates throughout the conflicts that it has participated in. And as far as the OV-10 thing, it really just shows how much certain leaders want to send the A-10 to the boneyard. Hopefully once we get Gen. Goldfein in as the new Chief of Staff, he will support keeping the A-10 in service for the time that it should be kept in service. Goldfein has said that he has an open mind to keeping the A-10 in service; reference the following article. http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/m...taff/83542108/
    Gen. Welsh had said multiple times throughout his time in his position that he wanted to retire the A-10. Now he is backtracking and has said that he doesn't want to retire it. "Welsh conceded that the Air Force does not really want to retire the ungainly aircraft" from this article http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...r-the-10-15393
    Last edited by Chilly; 28Apr16 at 15:45.

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    This whole A-10 vs F-35 thing is a waste of everybody's time. The thread over at the ED forums is so full of stupid that I had to try very, very hard to refrain from posting a tirade there - pointing out how utterly dumb it is to rip on the A-10 when comparing it to an aircraft that was designed for a different age with a different focus in mind.

    Looking at the bigger picture, there is no end in sight to the various COIN conflicts around the globe and US and coalition service members are still very much engaged in combat on the ground. Prematurely retiring the best CAS asset ever employed in favour of fast-tracking a platform that has too many unresolved issues to mention, is quite simply nuts!

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    Junior Member Chilly's Avatar
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    Totally agree Dusty. That's the main thing I try to tell people but unfortunately sometimes they don't listen or understand. However, its everyone's right to have their own opinions and its just something you have to deal with.

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    Given that the vast majority of people have no clue how the A-10C, or any other combat aircraft, is employed it's a totally pointless playground argument. The only people who actually do have the first clue wouldn't actually say anything, and even if they did they wouldn't be able to share details behind their reasoning anyway.

    Even the actual capabilities of modern aircraft (including the A-10C) are very different to what people using DCS to judge them will believe to be the case. It's a big source of irritation for me seeing the same old arguments such as "the A-10 is dead outside of a COIN environment", because DCS simmers are totally blind and unaware of the systems in modern aircraft that make them survivable in high intensity conflicts.

    There pointless pissing contests will never end though. And there are always armchair "experts" on hand to offer their thoughts on why everyone else is wrong.

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